Confidence Building and The Power of Storytelling

In this episode of The Potentia Playbook for CFOs, Dominique Highfield sits down with Scarlett McCabe, CEO of Debate Mate Training, to unpack the real power behind confident communication.
 
A "disruptive" student turned debate champion turned global social enterprise builder, Scarlett shares her journey and explains how the rise of AI is turning "soft" skills into essential ones. 
 
Scarlett shares simple, actionable tools that everyone, no matter the role or industry, can use immediately. From structuring your message around what your audience needs to hear, to staying composed when your mind goes blank. If you’ve ever struggled to speak up in meetings, translate data into impact, or felt like you don’t quite belong in the room, this episode is packed with insights to help you own your voice and lead with confidence.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to Potentia's Podcast. I'm Neris Walters, co-founder of Potentia. And I'm Dominique Highfield, CFO at Blue and Wild. So, Dominique, who are we meeting today?

SPEAKER_02 0:17

We are meeting Scarlett McCabe, who is the CEO of Debate Mate Training, which we're here all about, hopefully. And she is going to be talking to us about confidence building and storytelling. Fantastic. Let's get going. Hi, I'm here with Scarlett McCabe, CEO of Debate Mate Training. Scarlett, thank you so much for coming today. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. So please, I think our listeners would love to know a bit about debate mate training and the debate mate social enterprise, and then we'd love to learn a bit more about you as well. So tell me, tell me about debate mate.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Oh, okay. Where do I start? It's quite a long one. Um Debate Mate Training is part of a social business called Debate Mate. We started off life as a charity running debating clubs and schools in areas of high child poverty, and have now developed one of the sort of pre-eminent corporate training businesses that teaches people to speak well and disagree better all through the power of debate. So we've been going, the charity's been going 15 years, business has been going about eight years, and it's all designed to equip people, whether they're five or fifty-five children, professionals, speak English as a first language, speak English as an eighth language, with the skills to help them succeed in the current world of work, but also the future of work. So all of the kind of soft skills, which I hate that phrase because it makes them sound not important, but um very important. Yeah, human skills uh to be able to kind of succeed, no matter in what industry or what background they have.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

And I love so I obviously a bit more familiar with debate mate than most. Uh I love it because it teaches us those skills are so important now in the world of AI, right? So um, you were talking to me about uh previously about the empathetic and active listening and having a point of view. Um so these skills, these softer skills, are becoming more and more important, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

They have always been important. Uh the ability to communicate well has has always been essential. Now in the age of AI, they've gone from sort of nice to have's to must-haves. Uh, the capacity to uh really bring your humanity out when you're speaking, the ability to critically assess information, but also with empathy and compassion, the ability to pick up the phone and speak to someone, to have a constructive disagreement, to be able to stand out in a crowd. These are all skills that hopefully AI will never be able to replace. And what that means is they are skills that are going to be ever more important. If we're thinking of ourselves as professionals, but also as people who run businesses, these are the skills that need to be prioritized. Because in a world where knowledge is now so commoditized, everyone has got all of the information at the press of a button. You no longer need to have people who've got, you know, 30 years' experience as consulting or doing whatever to come up with the best reasoned analysis on something because Chat GPT or Gemini can do that for you instantly. What you do need are the people that can take that information and understand it in the context of the humans they're speaking to, be able to kind of see the other side of the story, translate the data into narratives and stories that people can engage with. Those are all human skills. AI can't do that. So they've always been important. They are now actually essential.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

And that we've talked a lot uh at Potentia about storytelling for CFOs, and it sounds like that's exactly what you just described. It's not about having the data and all the best data at your fingertips because that's readily available. Yeah. Being able to convert it into stories, right? Then this is what you guys are about, I think.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, it's about taking that data or or or the facts or whatever, the information, and presenting it to people in a way that they can really engage with. Storytelling is one of the best ways to do that. And, you know, storytelling isn't telling a good story for the sake of it, unless you're an author or a telling good story. Yeah, I mean, I I know you tell a great story. Um, but it's really in a professional context, it's influencing, it's persuading, it's getting people to do something as a result of speaking to you. And as you get more and more senior in your career, the idea is that more and more people will start to listen to you. So being able to develop that skill set is so important. And I think particularly for CFOs or or sort of very, very technically minded people, that doesn't necessarily come that naturally. It's sort of very much the data speaks for itself, but we know now it doesn't. And data can be interpreted in so many different ways. So to really have that edge and to have that ability to stand out, you really need to engage with the kind of the why behind it and paint that picture so people can understand why they should care about what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

And what I love about debating, which I hadn't really realised before, is the fact that you have to sometimes share and present views that aren't your own. Yeah. And so it's that having that ability to empathize with the other point of view. And often in my job, well not very recently, but sometimes you do have to present data that you might have a personal differing opinion to, so um, or a strategy that you might have a slightly different take on. So um it's a really good skill to have, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

It's so important being able to see things from someone else's perspective and really understand other people's views, like it develops that understanding will then lead to empathy. And we that's such an important skill in life. Like I wish more people had empathy, and you see the way that people disagree with each other online and the kind of vitriolic hate that comes out from particularly some of our politicians more recently. You just think, God, this is so miserable. Like, if people had a bit more empathy and a bit more compassion and kind of respect for other people's opinions, the world would be a lot happier. But in a business context, it's actually a massive strategic advantage being able to see things from other people's perspectives. Because if you can really understand the motives of someone else, even if you don't, we're not asking you to change your mind, but just really understand it, it means you can critically assess your own strategy much better. Yeah. Um, and then the flip side is obviously as you get into positions of leadership, you have to advocate for strategies or or priorities which you don't necessarily agree with. But if you agree with the overall goal, which is the business succeeding or sort of the team moving forward, then you can kind of get behind it and actually there's a nuance and there's an art behind presenting an idea as yours that you don't agree with. Um, and you don't, it's not like I don't think we should do this, but I've been told to, therefore, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Well, let's talk about this because this is like this nuance and art, because so when it we'll have some CFOs, we'll also have some aspiring CFOs. Yeah. And they might well be having to deliver messages that aren't their own. Yeah. Or and and so, and and you know, and often you'll be put in that situation. So, how do you narrate that so successfully?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

So I think there's kind of a distinction between narrating one that isn't your own, but you might agree with it, fine, and then narrating one which isn't your own and you really don't agree with it. So, in terms of the first one, it's understanding the why behind the strategy and then being able to articulate that within your own frame of reference. So let's say there's a shift in strategy focusing on looking more at brand rather than, I don't know, uh processes, let's say. And that obviously has a direct impact on any side of financial metrics. There's you look at it from your perspective, from a finance perspective as a financial, as a stakeholder for you and your team, and really understanding how you can articulate that in your context. So you don't have to say this is we're we're doing this, and I've come up with this idea. You can say, look, this is this is a strategy, but actually where I think it really works for us is X, Y, Z. So you kind of take the message and you and you articulate it for your frame of reference and your stakeholders. We always say at debate mate, when you're articulating a message, whether it's your own or someone else's, you have to have a listener-led approach rather than a like speaker-led approach. So, what are they gonna hear? So, what are they gonna hear versus what are you gonna say? Um, and the kind of metric to think about is what you want them to know, think, feel, and do. Yeah. And if you can do all that, you're good. That's how I wrote my ballpack because I have a do fill no. There you go, exactly. And it's kind of if you put yourself in their shoes, like you will be fine and you will be able to articulate the same message to one lot of stakeholders slightly differently to another based on what they care about. Where you don't agree with it, and this is where it gets a little bit harder. Um, there's nothing like less inspiring than hearing a leader be like, I don't think we should do this, but we have to. Yeah, no one wants to do that. Yeah. No, because it undermines your credibility as well. It doesn't feel good as a leader to be that either. It doesn't, it's not, it's not a very inspiring leadership. No, it's not. Or then worse is when they're like, I don't feel comfortable with this. And you're like, Well, if you don't feel comfortable with it, why should we feel comfortable with it? Why should we go and do it? Yeah. So I think the way you do it then, and if it's something you really don't feel comfortable with and you haven't been able to kind of deal with that prior to the decision being made, um, then it's, you know, it's it's being honest, being like, look, this is difficult. This is if I understand why people would have some objections to this. I did have some objections to it, but in the context of the kind of common goal that we're going towards, so you focus on the end goal rather than the process, then that can help it feel a bit more authentic to you and also still inspire confidence in the people that you're speaking to.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

So what I heard here, if we unpack this, in the first instance, it is find things that are going to resonate with the people that you're talking to. So the functional, for example. The second is tell people what they're gonna hear, not what you want to say. Yeah. And then the third is marry it back to an overarching reason why and the overarching goal if you particularly if you're struggling with the the nitty-gritty of what you're being asked to do, right? Is that is that is that 100% nailed it. See amazing. I'm also really pleased. I'm already doing the defil no. I feel like I'm felt like I'm winning here. Absolutely, you are always. Um so tell me then, what I'd love to know more of, and I think everyone would enjoy to know tell me debating is a skill that I remember from school. Not everyone did it at school, but how did you get into it and why have you created a business out of it?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So I got into it because I was very naughty at school. I didn't mean this for a minute. I mean, lot like I wasn't doing anything massively illegal, but I was one of those students that might I felt really sorry for my teachers. I now feel sorry for them. Um, I was just really aggie. Like I just had something to say about everything, bit of a no-it all, like always talking over them, being quite rude and quite disrespectful. Um, I mean, in the context of like a very kind of academically selective girl school, like it wasn't that bad. Um, but I wasn't really achieving my potential. Um, my mum was, I think, probably at her wit's end a little bit of being like, I don't understand you're smart, like you're engaged, but why aren't you performing? Um, and bless her, she threw everything at me. Like, I did everything. I I had a very, very privileged educational upbringing. Um, but it wasn't until my history teacher said to me for like the third time, I was in detention, she was like, I'm gonna call your mom. I was like, oh god, please don't. Because my mom's quite a scary woman and she's quite not scary, but like quite intimidating. When she says something, she goes through with it. And the last threat she'd made to me is if I get another call from the school, that is it. That is it. You are going. I'm gonna send you back to Australia where she's from. You're gonna go live in the boondocks and you're going to be. I fully meant it. Fully meant it. And I was like, oh god, okay, don't think I could handle that. They make me do loads of sport there. I'm quite hate, I'm quite lazy. Like, I don't really, it's too hot. I don't really want to do that. So um, anyway, I got my history teacher said to me, I'm gonna call your mum. I was like, oh, is there anything I can do? Can I, can, how can I persuade you to not do that? Literally gonna send me to the other side of the. I was like, what do you need? Yeah, what do you need from me? And she was like, I need you to take this seriously. I was like, no, I'm I'm I'm on board, I'm serious. Like, how do I not, how do you not call my mum? She's like, if you come to debate club, then I won't call her. And I was like, Are you serious? Because she'd been trying to get me to come to debate club for years. And I was like, no, it's just losers who go, they're all really weird and they all just want to be politicians and they all think they know it all. And like I'm way too cool for that. Um, and she was like, No, you have to go anyway. So I went and literally I was like, this is unbelievable. Like I can speak, people are listening to me, they're not telling me to be quiet, they're engaging with what I'm saying, and then I can argue back and I'm like rewarded for it. I was like, this is amazing. And um, I was completely hooked. And my mom could not believe the impact it had on me. She was like, I've spent all this money, done all these things, and it was like debate club that did it. Um, and she thought, we need to this in the way that my mum does, everyone needs to do this. So this is a skill that everyone needs to have. Um, so because she used to take me to all my debating competitions and see all these young people kind of being actively engaged and participating in the world. She was like, this is amazing. But it was very private school dominated, very male, like me and my debate partner were the only girls who took part. And she was like, no, no, this needs to change. And so she was very interested in child poverty, social mobility. She always had, she was a barrister, but always had like a niche practice in working with in human rights and um and children in particular. Uh, she took some time out during the 2005 general election campaign to work with Tony Blair and part of the key campaign team, looking at the kind of women's vote and spent a lot of time going around the country seeing how dire the country was, like in comparison to our little bubble in sort of southwest London, and basically never went back to practice. She um set up the charity of debate mate, which she used university students to go into schools. The rest is history. I mean, it's been debating changed my life. I say that all the time. Uh, and I am really, really passionate about the fact that these are skills that you can learn. Like, I would never have been like desperately off the rails had I not done this. I might just have been quite average. Um, but when you see it in a context that we work in on the charity, particularly, and you see young people who aren't listened to, who are naughty and disengaged in school like I was, but they don't have the support at home, they don't have the kind of structure and the privilege that I had, what that means is that means expulsion, that means often like crime, prison. And you see, you see that trajectory. And I've seen it again and again and again with the young people that we work with. When you get them before that, the schools can't believe how they turn. And they go and like some of the graduates from our program are off, you know, partners and magic circle law firms and they're working government and they're like smashing it. And it was the confidence that came from debating and lots of other interventions, but it's that confidence that you get, it never leaves you. Um, and then on the kind of business side and professionals, I see it with particularly with women that we work with who are on paper amazing. And when you speak to them, they have such low confidence and they feel very, very aware of the fact that as they get more senior, they're the only woman in the room, or they aren't able to put themselves forward as well as their male colleagues. I'm like, God, if you've done this at school, this would be so different. And they say that to me as well. Um, so yeah, it's something I'm very passionate about, and I think everyone should do. And my kids have been doing it since they were able to talk.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Well, I'm I'm like thrilled for you. I'm glad your mum didn't send you to Australia as well. Me too. But your mum's hands like it's such a force to be reckoned with. So you mentioned there around confidence, and I think there is, you know, people will find something that they're passionate about or that they're great at, and that will give them confidence. Um and that's really important, everyone finds their thing. But there sounds like there's something so unique to debating or the skills that you learn in debating that gives so many people confidence. So torch with the people that are listening that aren't the most confident speakers in the room or hate public speaking or dread, you know, dread speaking up in a room, what are those top tips then? How if we can synthesize it down for uh for people, how would you synthesize it?

SPEAKER_00 15:27

So confidence is a skill. Like you're not, you don't just wake up one day, you're like, oh, I am now confident, and therefore you are. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, and yeah, some days where you wake up like, absolutely, I'm not speaking to a single thought today. Um so if you understand that it's a skill, what that what that means is you can you can learn it and you can develop it, but it does take practice. And I think the first thing to think about with confidence is we talk about it in the context of communication. And what that really means is that if you're a confident communicator, you can be in any situation and know you can handle yourself, not be scared if your mind goes blank because you know how to handle it, not be scared if it asks a question you haven't thought of, um, and know you have something to contribute. So, what that means in practice as a kind of set of skills and a toolkit is I think the first thing is realizing there's no one like archetype of a confident communicator. People often think they have to sound a certain way and speak a certain way, and if they don't have the right accent or if they don't have the kind of very statesman-like way of speaking, that they're not going to be impactful, or if they're someone who's more quieter versus louder, that they're not gonna, you know, have impact. And I think that's really wrong. Like I think we can all, there's so many examples in history of amazing impactful communicators who are very quiet and considered, and also examples of people who are very loud who are just like you can't listen to. So I think first of all, it's recognizing there is no one way to effectively communicate. The only effective way to communicate is the way that feels right to you. Yeah. Um, so what that means is we need to have control over the way that we speak. So this is the kind of second tip and the main bedrock that underpins our methodology. If we get the secret source, yeah, it's so it's being intentional about the way you communicate. If you're someone that speaks really quickly, that's great, but sometimes slow it down because you can lose people when you speak really quickly. If you're someone that uh uses filler words, I'm so like, which we all do, that's fine. But try not to do it at the beginning of when you speak, because the first thing that sort comes out of your mouth is I'm so like uh just personally, just for me speaking, you know, that's not gonna have as much impact. If you're someone that hedges when they speak, and what I mean by that is they use you use f hedging phrases. So just checking in about this or my opinion on this or personally, just for me, speak, you know, things like that. Um, or even you know, British people say sorry before they even walk into a room, like sorry, just want to come and get a cup of tea. I say sorry, even if it's your fault. Yeah, exactly. Um all fine, yeah. But think about the intentionality behind that. Sometimes try not to say it.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

I've actually banned myself. If I reread an email, I always take out just, yeah. I've banned myself from saying just.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

There was a study that was done that showed that that people who say just tend to be. You're undermining yourself. Yeah, and they tend to be worried. Yeah, exactly. The only caveat to that is that sometimes it's appropriate. Like if you're chasing a client for something or you there's a power dynamic there, um, sometimes you need to soften, and that's absolutely fine. Or like if you're a doctor and someone asks you your opinion on something, um, you're not going to inspire loads of confidence if you're like, well, just for me, personally speaking, I think that you are, you know, about to die. You don't sound great about that, do you? But if you're not really sure about what you're about to say, you say what you think first and then you soften it with that's just my opinion or personally speaking. So uh first thing is know one way to communicate. Second thing is like have control over the way that you speak.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

So know that you have everyone has their four walls, but no, own what the yours is and and and play with it or try and make it to appropriate places.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

And then I think the third thing, and again, it kind of depends on the context that you're in, whether you're um speaking one-on-one, whether you're in a big group, um, whether you are kind of, you know, speaking uh about something you know about but versus something you don't. But don't be afraid to fail. There's this kind of perception that you have to know it all when you're speaking and when you're presenting an idea. And if you don't know everything about something, then you shouldn't say it. But actually, I think that's really wrong because we're not robots. Like that's our sort of fallibility and our, you know, the fact that we might get something wrong is what makes us uniquely human. Um so don't be afraid to make a mistake, don't be afraid to not know the answer. Simple things like if someone asks you something you don't know the answer, be like, Look, I haven't actually thought about that before. I'm not 100% sure. My instinct is this, because you will have an instinct, but let me go and double check, let me check the numbers, give me 10 minutes and I'll get back to you. And then get back to them. Get back to them in nine minutes.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Follow up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

But do it. Like, but don't be afraid to say what you think, but then caveat it with like, that is just, I just need to double check it. Again, if you say something and someone actually says, well, that's wrong because of XYZ, be like, oh, okay, cool. All right, thanks so much for pointing that out. Let me go and check this and get back to you. Like, it's okay to be wrong, it's okay to not have the answer. We've all been wrong. Yeah, we'll all be wrong again. Exactly. And um, women in particular tend to struggle with this. I hate to gender it because there are lots of men who struggle with it and lots of women who don't. But there was so many studies that have been done about the willingness that women have to speak up if they're not 100% sure they have the answer. Yeah. And so I think that's my main kind of mindset shift, particularly if I'm speaking to women, around confident communication. Like it's okay to be wrong, it's okay to not have the answer. It's how you handle it in the moment that that matters. And so if you are yourself and you if you try and control the controllables, which are the first two tips, then it doesn't really matter if you're wrong, it doesn't matter if you make a mistake, you can come back from it. You'll be okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

And um, so you talked about the CFOs specifically. Um, in terms of we've been talking a lot at Potentio about storytelling being really important, more important than ever from CFO's perspective. What does that look like for you in terms of how how what makes a good story and how have you seen senior execs use storytelling to their advantage?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

So, storytelling is a buzzword that people love to talk about, and I'm so here for it because I love it as well. I think it's, you know, there's this kind of like archetype of, you know, you start with a personal example and you know, you show your vulnerability and all of that. Like that's all fine if you feel comfortable with that. Not always relevant when you're trying to describe the 2027 budget for example. When I was six, um, exactly. It's really the mindset around not letting the data speak for itself, like putting the data in the context of the the story behind it. So rather than just presenting a set of uh figures from Q1 and being like, so for you know, Q1 next year, this is what it's gonna be. It's why? Like, what have you learned? What is the real life example of that? What are the implications of it? So before I always say before you present the example or the facts, present the logic or the thinking behind it. So you start with the thinking and then present the example rather than the other way around. Because people tend to present the data or present the facts or the kind of statistics they're looking at, and then they explain their thinking after that. But what happens if you do that is that people get caught up on that. They get caught up on those figures and they don't listen to the rest. And for every one figure you've got, someone else might have a slightly different. And then they get really like, well, you know, you said it was 16 and then actually it's 15% or whatever. And then you're like, well, that doesn't really matter. The point is we should do this because we saw an increase. Whatever the um, you can tell I'm not a CFO. Um, but the point is if you ex if you start with the logic and you start with the reasoning, then you present the data that supports it. People are much more likely to buy into the why behind what you're doing. So they're much more likely to agree with it. The whole point about storytelling and the reason why it's so relevant is that it's all about, as I said earlier, influencing and persuading and bringing people along the journey with you. And you can't do that by data alone. Um, because for every one piece of data you've got, someone else has got another piece of data that might show something a bit different. So you have to explain the kind of context of it first and then give, then give the data.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Earlier you mentioned to me around confidence levels and particularly women. Um, and so it would be wrong not for me to ask you about imposter syndrome. So we hear about this a lot. Um, how what are your thoughts on imposter syndrome? And if someone's telling you I feel like I shouldn't be here, I feel like I can't do my job, um, what advice do you tend to give them? I love imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

I know that's a bit weird to say, but I when I feel it kick in, I do feel it, like everyone feels it. That's a sign for me that I'm in the right room. Like you don't feel it if you're very comfortable. If you feel like you're in an environment where you're used to being in and everyone knows you and listens to you and you know exactly what you're talking about, you won't feel imposter syndrome. Where you feel it is where there's a disconnect between like where you are and where you where you're comfortable being. And that's where the growth happens. Like you need that. You need to feel that in your stomach. You need to feel a little bit uncomfortable. Now, I understand there's a lot of like structural issues around imposter syndrome, um, whether it's gender, whether it's race, whether it's socioeconomic background. And like those are all, I fully accept that.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

That's is that more um sort of belonging as opposed to imposter syndrome, do you think? Is that is that more genuine belonging? Um, people not feeling included?

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I yeah, and I I think I think it is. Um, I think where it overlaps with imposter syndrome there is where where you're very aware that you're not included, yeah, and then you feel that you don't belong because there's no one that looks like you or sounds like you in the room. Yeah. And then am I actually the right person for this? I think it all kind of answered. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but what I always say to people when we're when I'm working with um groups, if I'm working with women in a very male-dominated industry, or you know, we do a lot of work, I do a lot of work with kind of like high potential black women, for example. Um, and it's like they're in environments where they aren't necessarily the only one that looks like them. How do you manage that and navigate the imposter syndrome? Yeah. And I sort of focus, I say, where possible, try and separate out. There's a lot of structural stuff that we can't change and we can't control. Wish we could. We can't. Let's focus on what we can. I reckon your mom could fix it. Well, she thinks she can as well. And suppose if anyone can, she can. We're here for it. Um, I can't. Uh, what I can do is in the context that you're in, I can help you be the best you can be. And that is focus, like control the controllables. So you're in a room, you feel that you feel a bit uncomfortable, that's okay. That's a good thing. So, first of all, like change that mindset around it's bad. I think it's good. It's a signal you're in the right room. And again, back to those tips I said earlier, just go for it. It doesn't matter if you're wrong, it doesn't matter if you make a mistake, that's okay, you're human. The issue isn't making the mistake, it's how you come back from it afterwards. So, how do you control the narrative if you say something wrong? How do you control the situation if someone asks something and your mind goes blank? Yeah. Those are all techniques that you can develop. Yeah. So when you feel imposter syndrome, it's a good thing. And it should be assigned to you that you're in the right space. And what you need to do then is double down on your skill set, not worry about everyone else.

unknown 26:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

I think there's what you just identified where imposter syndrome is is twofold that I think it shows up to your point exactly. And I hear about this so often. One is I don't I don't know that I'm, I don't look and feel or sound like everybody else. And that's the sort of we hear that a lot, don't we? Um, and that's where I with we've speaking to people that just own it, they're like, I love that I'm remember like I'm memorable. I love that I can shake this up a bit. I'm really proud to be the first black woman in the space or proud to be the youngest female on the board or what have you. Um and then the other bit which is I'm just not good enough. Um, and that's where just putting yourself out there, making these mistakes. You've mentioned a couple of times around and also like welcoming the opportunity to grow, right? Yeah. You've mentioned a couple of times what you do when your mind goes blank. Please tell me what I'm supposed to do. My mind goes blank, Scarlet. What am I supposed to do?

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Take a breath. Okay. Have a sip of water. Right. And then remember that it's okay if your mind goes blank. Like that's okay. It's okay that that happens. That happens to everyone. Yeah. I think it's gonna happen more as you go through the menopause. I feel like this is gonna happen even more then. I mean, yeah, I think I I for sure see that if my experience of pregnancy brain frog is anything to go by, I dread perimenopause and menopause because I think it will happen. Um, depending on the context that you're in and the kind of how inadvertently safe you feel in that in that situation, you can say, God, my mind's gone completely blank here. Give me a minute. I think you've said that to me once. Oh, I mean, I do it all the time. I feel very safe with you. Um, but also I don't worry about making mistakes. I'm not scared of it. I'm not scared of saying something wrong because I know I can come back from it. Yeah. Um, so it's giving your mind and your body time to catch up with each other because your mind goes blank, not because you genuinely don't know what to say, but because you're in panic mode. Yeah. So you have to breathe because breathing regulates the nervous system, calms you down, do a few kind of inhale, exhales, whatever it is. Take a sip of water, because that's like a socially acceptable way to kind of pause that can help you regulate. Don't panic. It's okay. And then if you can say, look, my mind's gone a bit blank, just give me a minute. Or just once you do that kind of calming, that calming mechanism, then just start with one thing. Just say one thing. You could eat that one thing could even be, that's so interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. Really, I've got probably three things I want to say about that. That's a good 10, 12 seconds for your brain to kick into gear. I always say there's three things I want to say because I know I'll come up with three. You could just have one thing. And then by doing that, you kind of your brain and your body kind of catches up and then you get into it and you'll be fine. Um, but it's that that instinct when you're when your mind goes blank, the instinct is to just start talking and hope that something comes out. Don't do that. Take a breath, have a sip of water, remember it's not the end of the world, and then just start and you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Yeah, and so many people will be thinking about these critical impact opportunities they have. They'll be like, but Scarlett, it will be the end of the world. I might lose my job or I won't get the pitch or I'll make a fool of myself in front of the whole business. What's the worst? I'm I'm trying to think if you have you seen anything really bad go wrong, or what's the worst thing that's happened to people?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

I mean, it's not it's not, it isn't. I've never honestly never seen anything that bad where you're like, oh yeah, they're done.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Scarlett, I've got a couple of more questions I want to ask you, but that's okay. One is around, we've mentioned gender a little bit. Um, in terms of your career, how has gender, do you think, ever impacted your career, either positively or or negatively?

SPEAKER_00 29:22

It's a really good question because I am in, I'm obviously a CEO of my business, founder of my business. My business business partner is my mom. We're a very female-dominated team. Uh we have like two men in my team. Um so day to day, it's very much just how it is. I grew up with a very, very strong, independent like woman who fed me the belief that there's nothing you can't do. So I was never really aware of a lot of the like structural issues facing women, to be completely honest. Very naive about it. Um and when we first started doing the training that we were doing, I was very passionate about not having focused uh work focused specifically on women because I was like, that makes it seem like if we have women's leadership training or women's confidence building training, I was like, it just makes it seem like women are the issue. Um, so I was very anti it until we started getting demand from people to actually be like, look, I am really at a disadvantage because of my gender and the way I communicate. I can see it. I need this help. And we were getting this again and again and again. I was like, okay, maybe there is a space here. But again, I hate to gender it and there are, you know, very much exceptions to every rule. Um, so I think being a woman in my industry has helped me in terms of like being able to kind of present that there's no one effective archetype of effective communicator, i.e., kind of a white man. Um, so it it's helped in that regard. I am regularly in situations, particularly with the work we do internationally, where I am the only woman in a room of sort of at board level or C-suite. Um, we're doing more and more working at that kind of senior level now where we're facilitating conversations. Um, and I think it's an asset for me, to be honest. I think to your point earlier about like owning your difference, I do think it's an asset. I'm very aware that I am like a sort of a privileged white woman, which is very different for any of my colleagues who uh don't have that same privilege. I think sectionality is really important. It's really important, it's really important to acknowledge. And I can see it, you know, I have mixed-race daughters, their experience of growing up in the world of work will be very different to mine, and I fully accept that. I hope by then that the situation will have changed slightly. Um, but also I've instilled in them the skills that the sort of belief that I have that there's so much we can't control, but let's focus on what we can. Um, so I think it has been an asset. Um, my confidence in the way that I communicate means that I do call things out when I see that. Um, I'm not afraid to. It's got me in trouble a few times. With your history teacher, I think. Uh yeah, she's the right thing. Um but ultimately like I'm proud of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

I think it's good. I've got one more question for you. Um, obviously, I'm CFO at Blue and Wild, and we send flowers to people. Um, we care from afar. And I would like to send a bunch of flowers to the person that is cheerleading and championing you uh right now. So when this goes live, we'll send them some flowers. So tell me, who am I gonna send some flowers to and why?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

That's a great question. Is it cheesy to say my husband?

SPEAKER_02 32:38

No, I thought you were gonna say your mum, but yeah, your husband needs some airtime, so come on.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yeah, no, only because I mean my mum, yes, but she's already got a bloom and wild description. For my birthday present to her a few years ago. Um, I it's my husband because he really pushes me every day. And he's not like sitting there being like, oh darling, you're so fantastic. He usually says, like, come on, do better, be better. But he pushes me and he really like know obviously knows me and knows my mum and our dynamic, but really like gets me like motivated every day and calls calls any BS on me, um, but also is my biggest cheerleader. So I would send flowers to him, but also that's a slight hack because he lives with me, therefore I would get the flowers.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

I think that's also that's like the loving mentality, also like what expect good outputs. Yeah. Oh yeah, no, perfect. We will send your husband some flowers. He sounds like he's very deserving. Um, no, it's a cheerleader is important, right? And I think um being able to do this job and having the support at home, that's certainly something that I've noticed. Equality in the workplace can't happen as well until you have equality at home. And um, I think husbands are very important or partners are very important in the space.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah, I'm a big fan of equity over equality because I think if it's the quality we're looking for, we're setting ourselves up for failure. Um, but important refinement. Thank you for that. Yes, no, it's just I've we think a lot about it recently. Um, but yeah, you've got to have that support, and particularly when there's kids involved and you know, all the dynamics that come with that. Um you've got to have it. And you know, hope hopefully I'm a he considers me a butcher leader to him as well. So it goes hand in hand. It works both ways.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Sounds like a great partnership. Uh Scarlett, thank you so much for coming on. It's wonderful to hear from you and give us all some wonderful tips. So thank you ever so much for listening. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. I loved it. Dominique, how did that go? Uh I really enjoyed it. Scarlett, a bundle of energy with some really relevant experience for our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

What were your key takeouts? Gosh, there were so many. Um, I think for me, what really resonated was um control the controllable, um, which I think um a lot of our women will will definitely um understand and resonate with. And then it was the imposter syndrome part, um, which is a different take for us, I think, which is she likes imposter syndrome. She does. It's a signal you're in the right room. How how incredible is that?

SPEAKER_02 34:50

What were yours? Um, so it definitely those two pieces as well, but also don't be afraid to handle things that go wrong in the room, uh, whether you're taking something away or whether you're just having a little moment in terms of uh just pause and it's how you come back from these things or how you handle them in the room that really is is important. And then the final one for me was um seeing things. So don't be telling people what you want to say, but be telling them what you think they need to hear. Yeah. And so just reframing that, being a bit more empathetic in terms of how we get our stories across and how we get our our data across.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Definitely, and I think some some different um skills and advice for the CFO playbook.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, we've got some hard messages to give, we've got some difficult data to share, uh, and I think she gave us some really good skills to handle that going forward. Brilliant. Super. We'll catch up with you next time. Thank you for listening.