From CFO to CEO

In this episode, Dominique Highfield speaks with Andrew Belshaw, CEO of Gamma Communications PLC, about his path from Big Four auditor to CFO and eventually CEO of a listed business. He reflects on moving from practice into industry, the importance of commercial experience, and the challenge of progressing internally when former peers become direct reports. Andrew shares a candid view of the CFO to CEO transition, including the shift from technical expert to leading functions outside your expertise, and why humility and asking the right questions matter.

They also explore what makes a great CFO in different contexts, why the role is never one-size-fits-all, and how critical the CEO–CFO relationship is to business performance. Andrew discusses healthy disagreement, staying aligned externally, and Gamma’s IPO journey, offering practical insight into listing, governance, and building an investable story for the public markets.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Hi, I'm Neris Walters, co-founder of Potentia.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

And I'm Dominique Heifeld, CFO of Bloom and Wild.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

So, Dominique, who are you meeting today?

SPEAKER_04 0:16

We are meeting Andrew Belshaw, who is the CEO of Gamma Communications PLC.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Fantastic. Let's get going.

SPEAKER_04 0:23

Hi, I'm here with Andrew Belshaw, CEO of Gamma Communications PLC. Andrew, thank you so much for coming.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

Really grateful. We'd love to know more about you, Andrew. So please tell us a bit more. You were previously the CFO and now you're the CEO. So tell us a bit more about your journey, how you got to where you are today.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Well, firstly, thank you very much for inviting me. Goodness me, where where does one start doing that journey? I mean, if should we start at the very beginning? And you know, you you should feel free to get me to dive into wherever you want to dive in. So, yeah, as you say, I I was a CFO, so I started out life as an accountant, and and actually deep down I still feel I'm an accountant, even though I'm a CEO these days. So I probably had a very standard accounting upbringing. I went to one of the big four. I uh did auditing, got bored with auditing, as I think many of us do. So I know exactly. So I was sort of lucky that they let me try and do a bit of corporate finance as well. So I I did that. Um, and then I got to a stage where I was like, I I probably stayed in practice too long. I think I I was in practice at various firms for about eight or nine years in the end, and I think that was probably a little bit long because I don't think I ever particularly wanted to sort of go down the partner route, but I was kind of enjoying what I was doing and you know, lifestyle. So I thought, right, now is the time to break out and um get again be an FD. And I think one of the really nice things when when you start off in audit is you see loads and loads of different companies and loads of different industries, and actually loads of different roles because you're talking to you know FPA people and management accountants and you know all that sort of stuff. So I think it's a really good grounding for getting you an idea of what you want to do and the industry you want to do it in and all that sort of stuff. And I thought probably you know something in tech will be kind of interesting because that that's sort of interesting, and I understood it a bit. Being an FD, kind of interesting. Um, so I sort of started talking to head hunters as you do, and the first thing they sort of said to me was this you don't have any commercial experience. And I'm sure we'll come on and talk about commercial accounting because I I think it's a really important area. Um, and nobody could really articulate to me what commercial experience actually was, other than spending quite a long time in practice was considered to be a bad thing. So I think kind of top tip number one, don't spend as long time as practice as I did. I don't would would be my uh my first piece of advice. But unless you want to be a partner, unless you in which case you're sort of yeah, you're sort of lumbered with that at that point, aren't you, if you if you want to be a partner. Um, but you know, again, we we can we can talk, I've got views on all of that as well. Um so you you end up uh you know leaving to do a role that's not quite what you wanted to do. So I actually went to work for a business process outsourcing company. Um essentially pricing contracts. So what we would do is you know, you'd have a sort of large enterprise business that wanted to outsource its accounting function or its IT function, and and you'd price all of that up, which was which was good fun. So I did that for a bit.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Um how was that transition? You said it was you would in practice too long. How did you find that transition into FD?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Um I well, so that wasn't an FD role. That that was like a um I can't remember what it was called now, commercial accountant or something like that. It you you lose a lot of the support network when you're in you. I I hadn't realised quite what a support network you've got around you. And and at one level And resources and things like that Well exact exactly, you know, people may or may not like this. You're quite mollycoddled, I think, in practice, because there's a lot of things you don't have to do, and people do all of those things for you, and then all of a sudden you're sort of sitting out on your own with with very little support. You've you've got no, you know, because by that time I was in practice as a manager and stuff, and all the stuff you don't fancy doing, you can just push out, and suddenly you've got no staff. It's just like or you might you might have one or two people, and it's just you and you're doing everything, and you know, which is sort of fun at one level, um sort of frustrating at another level. So it's it's it's a it's a sort of difficult trans transition to uh to manage. Um but yeah, so you know, did that for a couple of years and got the commercial experience that everyone was craving. Um, and and then I've been very lucky in my career that I've not moved around. I think I'm lucky. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

I think it's probably self-made luck.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Well, I don't I don't I don't know because I I I became an FD, or my first FD role was this little company called Gamma, which at the time was was 120 people. Um I utterly failed to do my due diligence on it properly. Having done due diligence, you know, that was my job in practicing due diligence, I hadn't realised quite how unprofitable the company was at that time. So I went to this business, 120 people, um, thinking I wouldn't be there for that long, through my choice rather than the company game. And and kind of here I am 18 years later, having taken a sort of divisional FD role, moved into that sort of CFO role, moved into CEO. And yeah, so that that's the sort of journey at the high level.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

18 years later. And so 18 years later. I I think about this a lot, and I and I've met people that struggle with this. You obviously moved up through the ranks in Gamma, and then your your peers become your um you know, your direct reports and things. How did you for people listening, how did you handle that transition? Any top tips for those people?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

I I think that is one of the hardest things, and I do I have any tips on it's it's a really odd thing, and actually that CFO move into CEO move is the strangest one because you are going from a group of peers to suddenly you're running that team.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

Yeah, um with all the politics and dynamics and exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And it's the dynamics, but also everybody treats you differently at that point, and I think I found a CFO, and I think it depends a little bit on who you are as CFO, you're almost like the agony uncle of the team a little bit. So I had lots of people coming and talking to me, kind of saying, Oh, you know, I'm not sure which should be doing this or something. Because as CFO, you have the ear of the CEO, yeah, and you're generally, I mean, it's it's it's like a sort of presidential, vice-presidential thing, you're generally the last person in the room as CFO talking to the CEO, and generally you have the ability to say to your CEO, look, just say, you know, round the table without going into things, there's a couple of people who aren't quite sure about what we're doing, or they want a bit more, you know, or whatever it happens to be. And I think that's a really sort of special role. Then you kind of move to being CEO, and nobody's having those conversations, and it's it's it's the strangest thing that you've gone from being that sort of and and you're sort of seeing the game, it's still me, I'm still the same person. But no one's having me. It's Bill, my CFO sort of coming up to me going, just saying now, Andrew, that the couple of people who and and you you suddenly for overnight people didn't want to be serious. It's it's a very strange thing that that people stop talking to you. Um, and you just have to kind of reconcile yourself to that. And and it's not you, it's it's the role. And and I think it it's you know, you you all have found this as you move, you know, even going from a divisional FD to being a CFO. Roles kind of mean something and and they're looked at in particular ways, and actually stamping your personality on that is sometimes really hard because people just think, well, a CFO will say this or behave like this, a CEO will think this or behave like this, and therefore people kind of don't talk to you in quite the same way. And I and I find that really I mean your question was was have I got any top tips for dealing with it? And I and I'm not sure I don't be honest with you. I I I think there there is an element of of I think accepting it, you know, because you do sort of sit there for a little while looking around going, what what have I done? And actually all you've done is taken a new job title and people just impose on you what they think that job title is going to mean for you.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

You do need to wear the jacket a bit though, don't you, in terms of when you as you as you as you elevate through the ranks, as people as people start to see you differently, you do need to sort of maybe not be the last one at the bar or the drinks, or maybe not be over and uh and and being able to have those difficult conversations with people as well. So you do have though people perceive you differently, you do have to start wearing a different jacket as well, which is hard.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

You you you do, and and that's one of the other things I've I've found, you know, you you talk about not being the last person at the bar. I mean it's absolutely that people kind of don't want you, uh you know, you you suddenly find that you're not actually invited to some of the social stuff, and again, it's not because people don't like you. Well, I don't think I mean maybe it is, I don't know. I don't think it's because people don't like you because I'm the same person I always was, but I think there is increasingly a length of yeah, you know, in the CEOs around it's it does change the dynamics of of of things, and I think you can try really hard not to do that, and and as I said, you know, uh what I sort of found is I've obviously got a personality, you've got a personality. The role has a personality, and it's just trying to stamp your but you never get rid of it entirely. I mean, it but but you can do as much as you possibly can, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

So so apart from people not inviting you to drinks and not having not being your agony on the street. What what what else is do you lose more sleep as a CEO? What's what's the big transition for you as you move from the CFO to CEO?

SPEAKER_00 9:08

I I the the the biggest single thing that you just have to reconcile yourself with is when you're a CFO, you have a team, however, you know, I joined Gamera had a team of four by the time you know I start being CFO, I think we had a team of a hundred or something ridiculous. Um but you know what they all do. And you'll you know, so I know what a tax accountant does, I know what FPNA do, I know what a management accountant does. I may or may not be able to do their job, but I know what they do, I know how they should do it, I know what a good one looks like, and you can run that, I think, for most CFOs, because you've you've come through that. When you become a CEO, you start meeting people in marketing or product development or operations. You don't know what they do, you don't actually have any sort of objective view on whether they're good at it or not, and it it's just very, very difficult. And that was for me, that was the biggest change. That when you're in finance running a team meeting, you just sort of know what everybody does, and you can be a lot more helpful. When you become CEO and you're talking, you just got a whole bunch of people who are much better subject matter experts than you will ever be in in their area, and you have to be able to live with that, and you have to be able to cope with that, you have to be able to cope with the uncertainty that that brings. Because you you you don't understand everything in any way.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

And so, how do you manage how is it about asking outrageously good questions? How do you manage how do you manage and how do you get the right questions?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Well, I I I think it's just being humble, isn't it? I think I think I don't know if they're good questions. I think quite quite often they're just stupid questions. Yeah, and and I I mean you'll you'll have had it as a as a CF.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

I often don't know what's going on actually.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

No, but but but when you're running a finance team, sometimes you'll see uh one of the other sort of C-level people will come in and they'll ask you a question that you're thinking, okay, that's yeah, we're we're we're we're not you know kind of kind of getting above 11 plus now. And I'm sure I do that to the whole organisation the whole time. So I'd love to think they're really great, insightful questions. But I think just having the humility, and I and you know, different different people have different styles, don't they? But mine you you can't bluff this stuff if you don't know what somebody's talking about, just just fundamentally say I don't really know what you're talking about. So I think I think that's really helpful. I think as well, building up that network of people outside who who you can just kind of it's the same question. I mean, funnily enough, I was I was just seeing a guy just now who's you know knows about a part of our business in a in a parallel business that's kind of going, there's some stuff going on, I just don't really understand what's going on. Can you help me just give an external view of what's going on? So so that level of humility of just accepting that there's now huge parts of the business that you don't fully understand. Probably and you can't under, you know, unless you're running a really tight, you can't you can't get your head around everything. So just keep asking those questions, but also learning to deal with the uncertainty that all of that brings.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

And so all of that that underpins is not being too proud. So having this network, having this humility, asking questions, um, and that sort of yeah, pride comes before a fall and all that, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

No, I I I I think that's right. And I and I think um I think it's difficult when you're sort of going or or climbing up through an organization, because I think the the public face of a CEO generally has to be very much in in control. And I think, you know, so when you know, when I'm out sort of talking to analysts in the city or when you're out talking to staff and all that sort of thing, you have to create this sort of persona that you've got vague idea of what's going on, right? Because you know, they're your shareholders and they're your people and all that sort of good stuff. But actually, I think sometimes that creates the impression for for younger people and people on the career ladder that we're more sorted out than we really are, and I think that can be a little bit intimidating. Um, and and I think you know, opportunities like this to sort of go, yeah, you you'll you will see one side of me, and if you I don't know, if you see me on a staff webcast or you see me on an analyst briefing, you will see one version of of who I am. But actually it's nice to be able to have a conversation like this where you can kind of go, yeah, that you know, some sometimes aren't all in a room. Exactly. I don't even know where some of my doctors are. And I and one of them's actually a pigeon that's got their backs and no one's noticed. No, I I think that's right. Um and and it and it is important for people to understand, you know, CFOs haven't got everything sorted, CEOs haven't got everything sorted. You don't have to wait until you have absolutely everything sorted to take that leap or to take take that next level.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

And so when you don't have so if you've you've obviously got you've you've got one duck that's a pigeon at the moment, I've got a lost duck, what do you do in those as a CEO? So you is this where you call on your network and things? What do you what do you do when you when things are going away?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

So again, so I I I'm a very sort of consensus-driven individual, which again I think is I always sort of had a perception when I was kind of growing up that you know, CEOs or senior partners or whatever, um, yeah, they're just very, very decisive. And and I think you kind of, you know, you you you watch whatever the um the the sort of popular uh business programs on the telly are these days, and you kind of get these characters who are just very, very decisive. This is what we're doing, it's all this, if you don't like it, you can you know sling your hook and all that sort of stuff. And I think again, you just realise actually there are people like that, we've all met them. Generally, you don't work for them for very long. Generally, nobody works for them for very long, and generally they don't have an awful lot of longevity in the role. And whereas if you sort of look at common media, that might not be how it kind of comes across. So I I hugely like consensus, I hugely like going to chat to people, both within the organisation and outside of the organisation. And it is that it's it's I don't fully understand what's going on here. Can you just give me a view? And and somebody said to me the other day, I was talking to another CEO. Actually, a CEO's job is quite often just to join the dots, it's just to pull all those reference points together, understand what people are thinking, and then just try and join them into something that looks a little bit cohesive that that we can move forward doing. And I think that was quite a helpful analogy for me because I think that probably is what I do. I wouldn't have described it that way, but I you know now it's been described to me that way it makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

And you don't have to have a deep understanding if you're crowdsourcing and sort of joining dots together and asking right questions, you don't need to have that deep understanding. But it's imagining also having great people working for you as well, having the right team around you.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Well, I mean, they always say, don't they, recruit people better than you, and and then just you know work out how you're going to manage them. And I think that's absolutely true. It's it's just getting a great team around you, um, and and you know, not being afraid to shake that team up periodically because uh, you know, as I say, I've been at gamma for 18 years. We had a very, very different C-suite 18 years ago to the one we've got now. I suspect I won't be in gamma in 18 years' time, but it'll be a very different C-suite because the company morphs and evolves, and you know, you'll you'll see this doing the CFO role, the the people who've got you to a particular point in a growing company, and not necessarily the people who are going to get you there. Some some of them will realise that and some of them won't. And it doesn't make them bad, it just means they have a different skill set or a different way. But it's a difficult, it's always a difficult conversation. Um, and you know, throughout my career, sometimes you do have that conversation when somebody's like, I'm not really sure I'm the right person to go on the next phase of the journey. And that well, actually that can be difficult because if you think they are the right person to go on the next phase of the journey, that's probably the most difficult conversation. But where where people, you know, they they are getting to the stage of their career where actually the organisation needs a little bit more than they've got, or something different from what they've got. Doesn't make them bad people, doesn't make them bad professionals. It's just you know, the the organisation's morph and change a little bit, and sometimes you just need to you know have have those difficult conversations with people. But that's all part of growing up. Yeah, you have that as an FD, you have that as a CFO, you have that as a CEO.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

And there's nothing worse than being in a role that you're not enjoying or you're not valued in. So I think it's the right thing to do for both parties, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

I I think that's right.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Yeah, so talk to me. You mentioned Bill, you're an amazing CFO. Tell me, you've been a CFO, you now have a great CFO. I do, yeah. What makes a great CFO?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Goodness, I so I I think part of it, going right back to first principles, is it does depend on the business you're in. I think a good private equity CFO is not necessarily a good public company CFO. I think a good small company CFO is not necessarily a good big company CFO. And I think part of anybody's career progression is what you know, do you know what you actually want to be? Um, and and I well, I I don't really interview quite so many people these days, but certainly when I was a CFO, you interview a lot of people in finance, and and people come in, and it's you always go, you know, what do you want to do and where do you want to and oh I want to be a CFO, and it's like yeah, but what what does that mean to you? Do you do you want do you want do you want my job? Do you want the CFO of Gamma's job? Actually, you're trying to get experience to go and work in a smaller company. What does that mean? And I think a lot of people haven't really thought that through properly. And I think if you're not clear on where it is you want to go, you you're not necessarily going to get there. So so there's this sort of yes, there are some generic CFO skills to actually get back to answering the question that you asked me. But I suppose the point is I I don't think there's a one size fits all CFO. And I think as you know, as a young finance professional, part of what you might want to do is sit down and think about what A, do you want to be a CFO at all? B, what type of CFO do you want to be? Company, industry, you know, location. I mean, I've spent most of my working life in the UK. I imagine a good US CFO is not necessarily a good UK CFO and and and vice versa, because the markets are different. But I think for you know, for UK public companies, uh, which is which is what I know because it's what I do, um the I mean the very first thing our our chairman said to us when we listed, Sound you have one job to do as a CFO, which is just guide the market. Guide the market well, tell them where we're gonna go, tell them the numbers we're gonna do, hit those numbers, and if you do that, you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Don't exceed them.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

No, no, no, no, no. Well, no, I couldn't possibly on a public podcast, we couldn't sort of talk about ways of sticking a cruel on the balance sheet if you're having a good year. Yeah, just so no, we never ever do any of that, of course not. But uh no, it I mean, but you're right, it is just tell people what you're gonna do and deliver what you're gonna do. And you know, for me as a CEO of a public company, it's the same strategically for a CFO of a public company. Get your numbers out there, get them right, hit those numbers, and then everything is gonna be you know absolutely fine. So, yes, all the sort of standard stuff, you know, you need to run a finance team, um you you need to build that properly, you need to do the management reporting properly, give me all the management insights that I need to run the business, help me to run the business. But I mean, first and foremost, it's it's just getting that FPA piece right and just saying this is what we're gonna do and actually delivering it. And that's that's very much.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

So that's the single most important thing for you.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

It I think public company CFO, yeah, which is why I say it's slightly different, because I think in in a private equity world, my value creation is everybody wants to know what they're gonna do. Um, but I think you know, when you're a public company, it's sometimes a lot harder to deviate from what you said you're gonna do because I've got so many shareholders to talk to and you know, analysts and and and and all that sort of stuff. So it's that but uh you know, for for being a good CFO as well, and we were talking about this earlier, it's it's not just about going here's a bunch of numbers, it's actually giving me and giving the rest of the team the story around those numbers and the insights around those numbers and and helping us understand you know what's profitable, why it's profitable, what could be more profitable. Um, are there any bits of the business that actually in isolation aren't really delivering any profit? And do we need to kind of go and have a look at that? And those are the insights that that you really get from the finance team, and I think this is this is where I annoy Bill, my CFO, because I used to run finance, I get very frustrated with myself. I don't know that stuff anymore. So back in the day I just know all of that, and of course I don't now because I'm just you know one step removed from it all. So yeah, you you just sort of like to know what's going on, you like to know yeah, what I I don't just want a big string of numbers or a big string of KPIs with you know red and gold. You want the strategic insights, but I want to know the insights of what is it that you want me to do that's gonna drive this business forward.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

So getting do what you say you're gonna do to the market in terms of forecasting, strategic insights with so what's and and what's next, uh, where you should be focusing your time. Anything else for for those people wanting to business partner and be that be that vice president to the president, yes, um what what's from a personal perspective or relationship perspective, what do you look for uh in that CFO?

SPEAKER_00 21:21

I well again when you're recruiting, and and this goes back to what do you because what I'm looking for isn't necessarily what you'd be looking for, if it's not necessarily what somebody that chemistry, CFO CEO chemistry, is is super, super important. Um and and you know, when um I mean so I one of the interesting things that I went through actually when I was CFO is our CEO retired and we got a new CEO in, which is a sort of really interesting thing because the board's recruiting the CEO, but actually part of the recruitment process is it's it's it's almost like a sort of blind date or something, isn't it? It's like you you as CFO have to go and sit with the new CEO. Because if you two aren't going to get on, then you know we we've got to Bit of a problem, and when we were going out recruiting for Bill, there were candidates who were good, but I'm just sort of sitting there thinking, I just don't think. And it's not even like it's such a special relationship because there's very, very few people in the world I think I really couldn't work with that person, and I'm sure you're the same. But it's so much more than that. I mean, it's almost it's not quite like getting married, but it is like you know, when times are tough and it's all going horribly wrong, this is the person that's I'm just gonna be sat on my own with, just working out how we're gonna deal with this, and that's that's quite a different relationship, and that chemistry really does come into it. Um, and and I think I don't know, you just sort of know, don't you?

SPEAKER_04 22:41

I think I've had four four CEOs of my sort of uh top finance job, but and you're right, it's a very deep relationship. You get to it's very yeah, I'm saying intimate, but it's not intimate, but you know what I mean, you're there if you're thick and thin and in the trenches together, and late night phone calls when things are going awry, particularly as a list of business. Yeah. Um so yeah, no, I I appreciate it as a very deep and and so having that trust is important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And um it's it's it's incredibly important. It's also being able to follow each other's sort of logic and thought. Yeah, it's it is that very, very deep. Yeah, and what are you actually saying, you know, the words you're saying, what are you trying to tell me with the words that you're you're you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

Can I do you ever disagree publicly? If you if you do you disagree You must disagree.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

We try not to argue in front of the children, yeah. If that's what you mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Um I think it's really important.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

It's and and it depends what you mean by publicly. So when we're sitting with an as an exco, we we will disagree, but I encourage, you know, I I like the XK to disagree because I think that that's a very positive thing. Um I I think we we we try very, very hard not to do that outside of the XK environment.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

To having that aligned.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

And certainly not when you're when you're in charge of um, or sorry, when you when you're in front of the city and the analysts. Yeah. And and again, you know, this you yeah, it's it's hilarious because we go and see analysts and we go and see funds and all that sort of stuff. And because I used to do the CFO role, I kind of think I know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

I'm sure you didn't want to.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

And I know I don't. No, that's that then that's that's the point of of and also go, yeah, no, we got this, and this is the margin on that product, and this is growing. And and Bill's just like uh uh uh and he has to sort of very gently, without saying that's actually completely wrong. Um just go, that's completely wrong. And and I think again, yeah, what makes a good CFO, it's actually being able to steer your CEO back back onto what you know what you should be saying uh without making him look an idiot. But yeah, um so so there's a bit of that that goes on as well when when I go a little bit off piece with uh with with funds and he has to kind of bring me back.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

There is that there's a really healthy tension and a healthy disagreement, which I think is really important.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

But the CFO CEO relationship, I see that as a really val they need to move together and be in sync externally in the with the business, otherwise it of course.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

But but it's also that ability because sometimes you do need to have a bit of a Barney, you know, so it's so it's it's that ability to get everything out on the table and then agree and move, you know, and and it's that sort of relationship.

SPEAKER_04 24:59

Barney should be exco at best, but in private.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Yeah, I know absolutely, but but you know, but you can fundamentally disagree with each other, and and we do sometimes, um, but you you ultimately have to get to a point of mutual respect where you can move forward. Um, because it goes back to what we were saying early on. I I don't like the sort of command and control style that just sort of says, look, I'm doing this tough, you know, suck it up and go on with it. I do like to get to a point of going, you know, you're an intelligent human being and and Bill's super intelligent. You obviously think we should do something different to what I think. I kind of back myself, I'm reasonably intelligent. If two intelligent people with the same fact pattern can't get to the same conclusion, there's obviously something going on here that we both need to understand. And working that through is really, but then you're right, once you get there, then you've got to be absolutely in lockstep and execute it because otherwise it it all goes very wrong.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

Um Amazon had this saying, uh dis with a prince a tenant, which is disagree and commit. Yes. And we often have disagree and commit. Now, what I think when someone says disagree and commit, what I think it means is later I'm gonna come back and say I told you so.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

But but that cuts both ways, doesn't it? It's it's uh yeah, and there's and there's one um acquisition we did where um you know Bill will go and sort of speak to analysts and go, Oh, this acquisition is doing better than we thought it was gonna do. And and I'll just sit there and go, Well, it's doing better than some of us thought it was gonna do. There we go. And then here, you know, he'll he'll uh he'll have a little needle at me periodically as well. Um which is fine, but I I think there there are, yeah, it it is that disagreement, and you have to be able to disagree, and you have to be able to disagree well, and that's not just a CEO C. I mean, that's that's with the whole of the XCO. But I think that CEO CFO thing is is so important because you just spend so much time together. Yeah, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Super. We haven't got long left, so I'm gonna I've got three questions I want to ask you. The first question is when you listed, yes, tell us about this. Any any we've got lots of people that would be listening that are thinking about listening and uh IBOing. Tell us how was it and your what are your top tips?

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Goodness, right? So so there's there's gamma and there's me. So my personal listening experience was was strange and unusual, and I don't think this has ever happened to anybody else. So gamma was going through the whole listing process, and one of the things you end up doing just before you listen, it's in the few weeks before you listen, is you go and see a whole bunch of funds and you sort of say to them, Look, we're gamma and we'd like your money and all that sort of stuff. We were 72 hours before that first meeting, and our then CFO decided he didn't want to go through the listing process. So I was sitting at home on a Sunday afternoon, and our our CEO at the time sort of phoned me and said, Andrew, can I can we have a chat? I said, Yeah, that's fine, Bob. I mean on Monday morning. And he went, No, I kind of now, and I said, Well, I can you know we get probably seeing the next three or four hours and I kind of now, actually. Just whatever you're doing, would you mind just dropping it? And this was like Sunday lunchtime, so you're having lunch and that sort of stuff. So you kind of go and say to your wife, Well, I've got to go and see Bob down in Winchester. Um, and and he kind of said, Look, yeah, gamma's listing. Um, the CFO's decided he doesn't want to do that for various reasons. Would you like a new joy? So I was divisional FDA at this time. Would you like to be the CFO? So that that was my and it was literally, and if you don't say yes now, we're gonna have to do something else and probably pull the float and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, I'll give you 30 seconds because we kind of need to know. So that was a sort of interesting, yes on on these things kind of not that there was much riding on it, but if you don't say yes, we're gonna have to do that. No, well, well, well, there is that. Um, and and uh you know, and and subsequently found out that actually brokers and things were going, nobody's ever changed a CFO three days before we actually came out and market. We'll give it a go, but the chances of success are minimal.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

I mean, given how many meetings don't work out, the fact that that worked out with that change, huge change. It was just extraordinary, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

But I but again I think it's one of those, you know, seizing your opportunities and stuff. You you you've got to do that. I mean, to have said no in that scenario would have been maddening. I mean, it could have gone.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Did you have any doubt in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Uh loads. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, because you have self-doubt, you have doubt about the role, you've just been parachuted into something that's that everyone tells you is quite hard and difficult, and it is quite hard and difficult. So you have loads and loads and loads of self-doubt. But you you just have to take those opportunities sometimes, don't you?

SPEAKER_04 29:02

And it was it, you take it, you grab it, you make it work.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

And and you just make it work to the best of your ability. And um, yeah, no, you absolutely have to do that. But so that was my journey. Gamma's journey to listing. Um, yeah, I mean, listing in the UK is not very fashionable at the moment, and and I really think it should, because it's been a great journey for us as an organization. It's been a great journey for us as our or for our original shareholders who are sort of able to sell some of their shares, but not all of their shares. The other thing it's been able to do is as Gamma's sort of grown and grown and grown, is a lot of our um you know employees have have had shares or run share schemes and stuff, and they've been able to sort of exit those and and make a bit of money as well. So it's been really, really good, I think, for for all employees, not just for investors, for employees, yeah. Hopefully, investors have made a bit of money, not less so in the in the last year or two as the stock market has been a long time.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

I'm sure in the 18 years, it's been a special time.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah, it's it's no I over over time definitely, but the last few years it's it's just stock markets have been a difficult place to be. But no, it's it's been a great journey, it's been an amazing journey. And and I love being part of a listed company. I I think the the benefits of it, and both the CEO and CFO, you know, as we were saying earlier, you've got to do what you said you were gonna do. But as long as you have very supportive shareholders, and and we do, they're pretty relaxed. You know, when you turn up and go, This is our strategy, this is what we want to do, execute it, again, they'll say, not sure about that, not sure about that. But they're supportive, and you know, they will give you the time to execute it and make it work. And I always feel like I've probably got a bit more time than some of my peers who are maybe private equity bad to to execute the the strategy. So uh so so yeah, I I think listing is is much undervalued and underrated, but I get I mean it companies are undervalued, and and that that's the problem with it. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

And so, in terms of it's not something you can do overnight. I know even you were parachuted in 72 hours before, but it's not typically people can do overnight. Correct. Um so i is it something it's about two, three years out, you think people when you start thinking about it, what should they be comparing?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I think it depends because one of the other problems we have in the UK at the moment is so gamma listed on AIM originally, and then we've just gone up to the main market a few weeks ago.

SPEAKER_04 31:06

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Well, thank you. But the the nice thing about AIM is the regulatory burden was was a bit low.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

It's reduced, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

And and actually, yes, you have to do some things, but the things you have to do and are not for a well-run, reasonably sized business, the things you have to do are not that difficult, and I think you would be doing a lot of them anyway. Yeah. Um, moving straight on to the main market, the the burden's a little bit higher, and you probably end up having to do some things that you probably wouldn't be doing as a business and employ some people in roles that you that you haven't got just to sort of keep the markets happy. And I think this is where this thing that sort of says actually you need to be still thinking two two, three years out. But I think if you were thinking of going on to AIM, I don't want to say you can do it overnight, but you would probably find you are much closer to being able to do that than you think you're able to do. Um, and it and it's a you know you've got to have an investable story. I mean, that which again goes back to the sort of CEO-CFA relationship. The two of you just need to come up with what is that story you're gonna take to investors because ultimately, yes, you need to run the business and yes, you need to get the governance right and da-da-da-da-da. But I mean, where it's gonna fly or die is that ability to um you know go around the city and speak to enough investors. And by the way, you know, the reason I was able to do that, having the parachute in the 70s is I've been working at Gamma seven or eight years at that point. I mean, I knew Bob the CEO super well because you know we'd been working together for that time. So you can just turn that on pretty quickly and and get to a stage where you can tell that story together.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Yes, and having an investable story, yes, um and then having the right people around you.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Yes, and and again, you know, again, that's the sort of theme of our conversation. Uh CFOs where they can add a ton of value is making that story investable. Because you can I mean, you know, I I have been a CFO, so I think I'm not like this, but you all have met CEOs who are a little bit ethereal, and I oh sorry, and sometimes you're gonna need to just bring that back and ground that a little bit more. Um, and yeah, not all stories are investable stories, but I think a CFO can make a good story an investable story.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

I think it's becoming increasingly important for a CFO to be a good storyteller. It's sort of an increasing uh it's not sort of those uh sort of bean counters perception anymore, it's a storytelling one for sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

And and I I think in interestingly, just having a look at you know what I was doing, but particularly what Bill's doing now, I think a lot of the accounting standards now are getting so prescriptive, and the latitude that you have now and the way you account for certain things, actually, yes, you need to be able to describe the business of caution, but I think increasingly, and I was on call yesterday with our four people from finance just working out how are we gonna explain this weird bit of accounting.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

You had a great time, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 33:45

You're back in your I quite enjoy I quite enjoy a bit of technical accounting. So I don't, yes, sorry, yeah, tragic, tragic fashion type. I'm the thing. But I do quite enjoy a bit of technical accounting. So yeah, you know, how are we gonna um you know talk shareholders to just sort of explain, okay, that's the result, but actually the result might be a little bit better or a little bit worse than we we thought it was without putting you know 500 adjustments in which nobody really likes and everybody thinks you're lying. So I I think that's a key skill as well. Yes, you have to explain the business of sort of talking anyone, but actually explaining the accounting increasingly to non-accountants. Yeah, in a simple way. It's it's that is a key skill. Final question. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

Um, obviously, I'm CFO at Bloom and Wild where we like to send flowers to make people happy and to treat them for all sorts of occasions. Um, if well when this gets aired, I will send a bunch of flowers to somebody of your choosing. Oh. So who is your biggest cheerleader champion? Who should I be sending a bunch of flowers to?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Oh goodness me, that is a really difficult. Well, it's not a difficult question, is it? I'm gonna say you should send them to my wife. I thought you were gonna say Bob. No, not Bob. Bill, no, no, no, not Bill. No, that that would be weird. Um my my wife has just been wonderfully supportive over the years. And the other reason I would love you to send her some flowers is our wedding anniversary the other week, right? And I didn't send her flowers. I always and I tell you, I tell you, no, I tell you why. I tell you why, because I said to her look, I don't want you to think I've forgotten to send you flowers, but it is so hot. It is and we're not in. If I send you some flowers, they're gonna be in that box on the porch, they will be dead. Okay, but it's cool down. And I and I yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:16

Okay, well so first of all, you need to buy your wife some flowers. I do, I do. Well, yes, it's the weather does.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

I can't just have the complimentary flowers because that's even worse, isn't it? Now we're saying it, I realise quite how bad what I've just said to me.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

But no, you are right, the weather does impact. We do work hard to make sure that's it.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

No, I know, and it's nobody's fault. Yeah, but it but it is on yeah, on days like we've been having recently.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

Well, it's cool, Dennis, so get your wife some flowers. And when this airs, we will send you all my. But it is true that you can't do jobs like this without the support at home, can you? It's very important.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

No, you can't, and I've I've been so lucky over the years. Um, she's been absolutely brilliant. So, um yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Okay, we will send your wife. What's your wife's name?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

So it's Rachel.

SPEAKER_04 35:50

Rachel, we will send Rachel some flowers. Well, thank you so much uh for coming. I've really enjoyed talking to you, and congratulations for listening on the main market. Thank you. And uh and yeah, thank you ever so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 36:01

So, Dominique, how did it go with Andrew? Uh great, I really liked him. Um, big take out for me was when he was talking about for aspiring CFOs, that it's not a one-size-fits-all piece, and yeah, what takes a great CFO in one place is not in the in the other. And I've definitely seen that in in my career. So I think it the advice for me is um find your niche, find where find where your skill set and your values and your leadership style works.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Absolutely. I liked it when he said that um like young people in being accountants at the moment need to work out if they want to be a CFO, and then what type of CFO? Yeah, because a lot of them just want to be one but haven't really thought about whether that's a small business or a listed business or a P-backed.

SPEAKER_04 36:41

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I really I was really and and this the he didn't list off a ream of things that were a great CFO, he actually was very it's very situational, very dependent on what the company needs, and that the company needs will change as well. Yeah. What about you? What were your takeouts?

SPEAKER_03 36:54

I loved it when he was talking about the CFO to CEO transition and having to be humble. And you know, you start as a CFO being the expert in what you know, you know everything about finance, and then suddenly you find yourself in the CFO role where you don't know much about marketing. So having to trust your your your next level down and you know um dealing with the uncertainty that that brings.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

And dealing with not knowing everything all the time.

SPEAKER_03 37:17

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was very insightful. That those that that's the takeaway for me for sure, was that transition piece and not knowing everything and being humble enough to ask the questions.

SPEAKER_04 37:27

I also really liked his vulnerability, where you think he's a listed business CEO um with many years' experience, and he doesn't have it all together all the time, and so that fills me with confidence.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Being honest honest enough to admit it as well. Love that. Brilliant. Well, what a great episode.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Oh, thank you, and thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.